User talk:Canreb Archives Part 2

Templates

Your experiment actually worked. The reason it showed a red link was because the template you were linking to doesn't exist. Take Template:Roth or Template:Cart'hen and copy the code across to the page linked in red, changing the planet links as appropriate. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 17:40, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

Tutorial

I've split the planet & asteroid pages off. If you go to Gamma Taboa system, you'll find the red link at the top for the template, and the red link in the categories bar at the bottom. Create the category first and keep it open. I've put all the relevent pages in there as they should be, and the page titles will help with the nav.

The coding for the template will be the tricky bit...

{| id="toc" class="toc"
|style="width:7.5em;"| '''[[Raskor system]]'''
| [[Raskor (star)|Star]] '''·''' [[Raskor|I]] '''·''' [[Raskor II|II]] '''·''' [[Raskor III|III]] '''·''' [[Raskor IV|IV]] '''·''' [[Raskor V|V]]
|}

Is the code to produce...

Raskor system

Star · I · II · III · IV · V

Change "Raskor system" to "Gamma Taboa system" and hit Preview. You'll find there isn't space for it to fit onto one line and that "system" is probably on a new line below. Where it says 7.5em earlier in that line, change the 7.5 to a larger number; 11.0em might be enough. That will give the system name more space and shift the other links along. As they are in a seperate column, they are not subject to the boldening that the system name is. '''·''' creates a bit of space and the dot between each option. Change the links between them so that it is appropriate to the system. You should finish with something like this:

Gamma Taboa system

Star · Belt I · I · Belt II

Hope that helps you. Should you get lost, I'll try to help out. Alternatively, the code I've just put here is fine to go on the template page, but you'll probably learn it better if you try changing the code yourself. :) This coding is only for the system contents nav templates, each type of template uses a different coding. Also, don't add categories to a template. Unless it's done in a particular way, it'll add every page with the template to that particular category. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 18:32, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

Um... you're meant to click on the link and put it as a new page, titled Template:Gamma Taboa. Not replace the template link with the code :P You'll find the links on the other pages in the system are all red links. If the template is a seperate page, one tweak to it will be copied to all the articles which include it. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 21:44, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

So I creat a page called Template"whatever"... put in the code and I'm all set... right Canreb 21:46, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

It has to have the prefix Template: otherwise the {{templatename}} (curly bracket) link won't work. At least, I don't think it would. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 21:48, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

Thanks... I got it now... corrected my mistakes... hope I'm not to much of a pest... this is by far the hardest thing I have ever tried to do on a computer... usually only use my e-mail and play some war games... Canreb 21:54, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

It's fine. You seem to have got the hang of that now, which is the important thing. You learn something new every day, eh? On that note, have you seen the categories bit above this? - Lt. Salak ^Talk 21:58, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

Stars

Firstly, read the Categories bit above ;)

Secondly. How do you mean? If you mean what to put on each individual star page, see the other star systems for examples. If you mean the Trinity Sector page, I've got the beginnings of a redraft at User:Salak/Trinity which I think gets rid of them entirely. As all the systems are linked from the right menu, it may not even be needed to add a summary of them all in the page content, which is meant to be an overview of the whole sector anyway. I'd cite the Ithassa Region as an example except that it's being rewritten as well at the moment. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 22:03, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

Ok... in that case I will wait and see what the final version will be... I was just trying to respond to the STUB request for more info listed with most of the stars... Canreb 22:06, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

Ah, well that's probably me just saying "this article about a star is short, please add stuff when you sim about it" - Lt. Salak ^Talk 22:14, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

Understandable, but the approach I've used is that on Cart'hen system. It covers the very basics (It's an Orange Dwarf) and leaves the mass info for the stub star page. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 09:23, 17 April 2008 (EDT)

Having the star page separate IS important. It's a separate entity, just like each planet, whether inhabitable or not, is a separate entity. The star pages, unless something unusual happens to/with/because of the star, will be very short, yes. But the page should be there nonetheless.-Varaan 15:15, 17 April 2008 (EDT)

Trinity Sector

Why are you adding data from the systems pages to the Sector page? If anything, it wants to be taken OFF the sector page. The system pages, the star pages, the planet pages are for that info. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 21:38, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Actually I'm adding the other way... but I guess your right...I will only add it to the star listing from now on... I was doing the initial work on the sector page... copying and saving before then putting it on the star page... will only add to star page from now on... trying to finish all the stars before my break at work is over... Canreb 21:44, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Ah, okies. I want to rip everything below the Table of Contents off the Trinity Sector page really, but not sure what you're still using. Is it safe to delete any text where the header is linked to a 118wiki article? - Lt. Salak ^Talk 21:47, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Let me double check each sector and make sure I have moved all the important data off the Trinity Sector page first... I think I have already done it for all the Federation systems... but I will let you know once I have double checked and made sure I did not forget something... Canreb 21:59, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Ok... I have checked down to and Finished New Scotland... will try and get to the others on my next break... question do we need to delet all info... I took out the main stuff that needs to be removed... left just a bare bones description... the kind of bare bones data that one could scroll down trying to find important facts fast... like member worlds... occupied worlds etc... let me know what you think...Canreb 22:07, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Um, that one's debatable. We have an Ithassa Region Stellar Cartography (WARNING! Building Site!) page which overviews the systems and phenomenae, so that might be an option if we want to split the overview off. We're unsure how we're going to lay that page out yet, but it leaves Ithassa Region (our version of the Trinity Sector page) as an overview of the region and its history. And yes, I am Redrafting the main Ithassa Region page too... - Lt. Salak ^Talk 22:16, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

OK... managed to finish the star data and checking the Federation systems... have not created pages yet for the non federation systems... I guess I should... that will be my next project... Canreb 00:51, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

I took a quick look at the work you are doing for the Ithassa redrafting project... nice work... much bigger area... I see some of my earlier work was kept and used... the only major thing I still want to add to the Trinity Sector main page is an image, copy of the map for just that sector... other than that I am very pleased with how it turned out so far... Canreb 00:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

Tried to cut out just the Trinity sector and then add it to the site... but pic ended up to small... could not see any details... when I tried to enlarge it first it became burry... not useable... I was hopeing to put map smack dab in the center of the big empty white section on the Trinity sector. Canreb 01:57, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

Think I've tried that myself with little luck. The map is already linked from the nav though, I just changed the name of the link to make it a tad more obvious (it had been the "(Sector 118)" link at the top). As for Ithassa, yes, it's a huge region. :) No reason such a crucial sector wouldn't have a similarly rich history though; given exploration it should even be more history :) - Lt. Salak ^Talk 02:08, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

Well thats what I tried to do... give Trinity Sector some depth... some history... while also giving lots of interesting simmimg locations and possibilities... now that the Federation part of it is done... next question is how much of the Klingon and Romulan area's of the sector should I fill in?... right now I just have 2 systems identified in both... they are the 2 largest population centers for their respective empires in Trinity sector... I was thinking of leaving most of the Romulan blank to be developed later as their border is closed... but with our treaty with the Klingons... I guess players could do missions in Klingon space... either with NPC Klingons or on their own... Canreb 21:53, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

I also checked my copy of the star charts book... the one our master copy of the star charts comes from... certain parts of the Ithassa region seem to be in the wrong spot as portrayed by the plain hand drawn black map... in compareson with the book... (location of the Gorn, Tholians, etc) will that be fixed... also how many sectors does it cover?... and once you have figured out the sectors will you be figureing out the coordinates of each sector?... also with such a huge area how many more systems are their?... Canreb 21:53, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

looking at the maps in the book it shows the Gorn below the Klingons in the Beta Quadrant, while the Tholians are WAY over in the Alpha quadrant with the Cardassian, Tkon and the Talarian empires between them and the Gorn... unlike on the Ithassa region map Canreb 22:05, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

After taking another look at the map of the Ithassa region I have to say that it needs to be updated... refined... turned into a more useable version... mind you that's just my opinion... as a working model it's ok... but not for a finished product... Canreb 22:05, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

Not another one moaning about the Ithassa map, lol! At the end of the day, I didn't make it. Also, Star Trek Star Charts is a non-canon reference anyway. I've raised all this with the relevent senior staff. It won't be "fixed". I doubt we'll be looking at sector co-ords, but for the total sector count, it's a lot. I've been asking occassionally for a new, up-to date map for the better part of 2 years, so don't hold your breath. The version there at the sec is correct as of August 2383, with ship positions edited off. Oh, and I think we deduced that the only place Ithassa would possibly fit in the Star Charts is the huge expanse at the bottom, the bit which is little more than a few Federation shipping lanes I guess, given the web nature of it on the map. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 22:30, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

As for the Klingons and Romulans, don't see why there can't be missions in Klingon space. Fill in what you like. Bear in mind the distrust between the Romulans and Klingons which has become conflict at times (see here, here or here for examples). The Romulans became involved in the Klingon civil war too, so there may well be a history of conflict in the region. In addition, there's also the Klingon-Federation relations, which although good at times, can also turn foul. The Azure Nebula has a bit of history too :) - Lt. Salak ^Talk 22:43, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

Work on Sectors

OK... I will try and add some data for the Klingon systems in Trinity... too bad about the Ithassa region map... I looked at the Star Trek Star Charts: The Complete Atlas of Star Trek by Geoffrey Mandel again... (how can it's charts be both canon and non-canon???)... anyway from what I can tell... your right... the Ithassa region is below the federation and it stradles the border between the Alpha and Beta Quadrants... I was able to figure out the distance between the Tholian and the Gorn... ITS 4 Sectors in Alpha space and then 4 Sectors in Beta space for a total of 8 Sectors between them... that makes the map they provided HUGE... way to big... Canreb 10:08, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Did it get mentioned or appear in TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT or any of the films? It didn't, thus it's not canon. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 15:15, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Talk about getting it wrong... another look at the Ithassa region map shows that they have the TZENKETHI COALITION which is in the 3rd sector away from Earth in the Alpha Quadrant as per the Canon star charts saved on the Wikki that we have been useing... no mention of the Cardassian Empire that is inbetween the TZENKETHI and the Tholians... or the Talarian Republic that is also inbetween the 2... Obviously they have all 3 of the Canon Races in the wrong places... (Tholian, Gorn and Tzenkethi)... when so much canon info shows that the map is wrong... why will they not try and fix it??? how hard can it be to make the map again but leave off the 3 Canon races (Tholian, Gorn and Tzenkethi)... that will not change the map they use but does delete the incorrect info... making their map right again??? Canreb 10:23, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

*sigh* I've raised most of this before. It's not my call, it's the call of the Regions' COs I believe. I've suggested trying to slip it into the gap between the Tholians and cardassians but got told it was the space at the bottom of the map if anything in reply to that. Trying to raise it further, I was then reminded Space is 3D and thus the Star Chart maybe accurate if you cut accross a plane of the galaxy, but above or below that it may be inaccurate. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 15:15, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

well in that case I guess the best that can be done is to try and work with what your stuck with... have started adding to the Klingon part of Trinity Sector... still have 5 star systems to add... used a Klingon dictionary to name the star systems so far... Canreb 15:37, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Looks good so far. There'll be too many systems to fit them all on the nav though, but that can be worked around. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 19:48, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Jenatris I believe is Varaan's old patch. He'd know better than I do. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 04:58, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

OK... I was just wondering why they added it where they did... map confirms their is no possible way it's that close to Trinity Sector... I didn't delete the add on as I wanted to find out why it was added... it should be 3 or 4 more sectors farther away... Canreb 07:06, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

Sector Coordinates

You do realize, don't you, that we're working with a 2-dimensional representation (picture) of a 3-dimensional object (Outer space). When I said "bottom" in the Jenatris explanation, I meant bottom of the sector, not bottom of the map. On the star charts, we're looking at the sectors top-down. X-axis goes left-right on the map/screen. Y-axis goes up-down on the map/screen. Z-axis moves into and out from the map/screen. So the Jenatris Cloud, being "below" the Trinity Sector on the Z-axis, would be further into the map/screen (almost "behind" the map). You get that, right?-Varaan 11:54, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

yes I understand that... all the stars on the map are not flat at the same level... some are above the page and some are below the page... if we turned the map so we could see it from the side we would have a narrow band with the number of stars becoming more numerous the closer to the middle... but it would still be 35 stars regardless of if you looked from above like the map or looked from the side... just harder to count them as some would be in the way of others looking from the side... space is WIDE... but it is only about 1 sector deep... like a plate stretched out forever but not very deep... So for the Trinity Sector... if I was to use proper star coordinates then for Starbase 118 I would have to write... X = 8 ly, Y = 10 ly and Z = 0 ly... while H'Atoria might be X = 15 ly, Y = 17 ly and Z = -5 ly... as in 5 ly below the middle of the Sector looking at it from the side... all astronomical info wp:Galaxy plus the Star Trek Star Charts book plus other articles I have looked up agree on this fact... space is 3 dimensional but it is also flat and spiral like a plate... Canreb 15:42, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

Right. So this being a FICTICIOUS setting (Star Trek is not "real") we can tweak some things a bit. Now, where we are in the spiral arm of the galaxy, it's more than one sector thick. And if I created the Jenatris Cloud and the other things behind it, Geoffrey Mandel wouldn't have known to put it in his book. So, while I was CO of the USS Atlantis, I created this area, below what you now call "Trinity Sector", and my crew and I simmed there. Seeing as how you have to go through Trinity Sector to get out of it, and to the Jenatris Cloud and beyond, I thought it natural to insert that info into the Trinity Sector description.-Varaan 08:50, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

QI'tu system template

The system page is spelt with a capital I whilst the rest of the system's been spelt with a small L. That's why the link isn't working. I'd suggest moving whichever pages are in error. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 17:48, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Oh, and inclined to agree about the systems in nav. I've got a lot on my plate tonight, just back from an internet-less week, had over 100 e-mails, a new ship launch going on... Let me know what you want help with, I'll try to help though. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 17:57, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Thanks... I got it fixed... I also deleted the systems from the Trinity nav window... the page might be long... but I think it works... all 3 different political groups and every system listed with basic info... Canreb 12:38, 5 May 2008 (EDT)

Planets

I know you're adding a TON of new systems and planets, etc. to try to flesh out the Trinity Sector. Remember, when you've decided what type of planet each is, you can add that specific category to the bottom of the page, too, to try to keep each kind organized. Thanks. -Varaan 10:22, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

once I finish the sector I will try and go back and add all those planet type categories... Canreb 10:25, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Remember to check out the Planetary Classification page. There are different classes for each planet type. "Gas Giant" isn't a category, because they fall in as either Class Js, Class Is, or Class S-Ts. I've fixed up all your "Gas Giant" categories with the appropriate category depending on size.-Varaan 10:56, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Thank you... I will check and make sure any new gas giants I make are given the correct category... I guess I will need to use the Planetary Classification page to categorize the other planets I have made or will make...Canreb 11:07, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

The nice thing, too, is if you refer to the planet's class in the description you can make a link to the classification page like this: [[Planetary Classification#Class M|Class M]], which looks like this: Class M and takes you right to the "Class M" section of that page.-Varaan 12:16, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

When I finish the sector I will try and do that... go back and add the links to each planet for the classification... thanks for the info...Canreb 14:15, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Ithassa

If you can flesh out the systems you created, then please do. I've been preoccupied lately with the Tiger, and Cmdr Cody just became XO on Indy so the rewrite has effectively been put on hold for the time being. You won't be stepping on toes. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 10:09, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Understood... will do what I can... Canreb 12:04, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

I was taking another look at the map for the Ithassa region... anyway we can update it... that way we can put the right empires in the right places... also this region should be partly within the Alpha and Beta quadrant... I think I have something that would work... right out of the Star Trek Star charts Book... could I send it to you to look at and you could let me know what you think... Canreb 23:01, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Even the star charts saved to this wikki show they made one mistake... wrong T empire... should be Talerian Republic not Tzenkethi Coalition... Canreb 23:06, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

I believe the short answer to that is no. My rewrite removes the map from the main page given its inadequacies. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 23:35, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

I've removed the Ga'ter system para from Ithassa Region. We list the systems on Ithassa Region Stellar Cartography instead. Anything you add to Ithassa Region will prob get written over given I have a total rewrite of the main page being drafted on my profile. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 15:13, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Sounds OK with me... but can I add stuff to the Ithassa Region Stellar Cartography page?? also I have finished the Ga'teran and Ga'ter system rewrites... take a look and let me know if it's anygood... then I'll start on the other ones... Canreb 15:43, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

I added the Ga'ter system to the above page... I know we are not suppose to change anything regarding the false info already listed for the region... but an easy way to solve the largest mistake is to just not mention the Tzenkethi Coalition in the rewrite... we know it's really on the other side of the Cardassian Empire and much closer to Earth than even Bajor... we may not be able to change the Ithassa map... but if we just delete that one mistake we would be Canon (staying within the Correct Star Trek mythos) and still not step on any toes... Canreb 16:06, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

And I'd be disobeying what could be interpreted as a direct order in the process. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 18:59, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Where are the location details from? I wrote in the Eratis sector itself almost exclusively for over two years (Wallace/DS17, then the Gorn Conflict on Indy, then DS17 again) and those details seem a little off compared to what I'm familiar with. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 14:27, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

You deffinately have more info on the area than me... I wrote activities on DS17 and area while on the USS Triumphant... maybe 1 year total... what was stressed to me while playing was that DS17 was on the edge of Federation space and right next to the Free Trade Union... Canreb 14:30, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

Well we're a long way from the Core, we've got the FTU near us in the Aurona Sector if memory serves, but DS17 is at the very heart of Federation activities in the Region. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 14:43, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

Oh, and DS17 isn't really on the edge of the Ithassa Region. The station's almost bang in the middle of the map ;) - Lt. Salak ^Talk 14:46, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

I did not put the FTU beside DS17 but it is not far off... 1 or 2 sectors are in between them... just trying to place the races I created in relations to the Federation border and DS17... The black map has no border for the feds shown... the offical map shows that the Federation border extends down into that area... Canreb 14:52, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

As far as UFOP is concerned at the moment, that black map IS the official map. I think that's correct for the FTU :) - Lt. Salak ^Talk 16:05, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

I was assumeing that part of the Ithassa Region was inside the Federation border... That would put DS17 just on the border with the none Federation parts of the Ithassa Region... Canreb 14:55, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

I changed the wording a little to clear up the problem of locations... ie.. just within the Federation part of the Ithassa Region... or just outside the Federation part etc... Canreb 12:15, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Ga'terian

GURPS Space Builder? Never heard of it... - Lt. Salak ^Talk 15:31, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

The layout you have used (Planetary survey information) is almost identical from the book... it is the same book I used to work out most of the data for each system in the Trinity Sector... I just left out most of the stuff that did not seem to fit in with Star Trek like Civilization: Population - 200 million Ga'teran's on world and about 50 million Ga'teran's off world , 22 million slaves on world, Tech level - ???, Control rating - ???, Society - ???, Starports - ???, Installations - ???

Other notes:Economic/production - ????, Canreb 16:11, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

I'd not really touched Ga'ter et al, so I guess it's prob left over from you or Varaan - Lt. Salak ^Talk 16:19, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Must have been Varaan then... still I think I may go back and change it over so it looks like the other systems... Canreb 16:22, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Ithassa again

How much of the info is sim based and how much are you creating from scratch? I'm not convinced about some of the sectors... - Lt. Salak ^Talk 12:44, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Only really doing work on the FTU part of space right now... all based on my past postings on the USS Triumphant which operated in this area... I am useing a grid map for the sectors... all the FTU races are side by side... Just filling in the main data for each home system and the race right now... working down the list... referances for the founders were very limited... they seemed to stay out of sight... after that I will fill in any other systems that they control... which for some is NA... but the Ga'teran control 5 star systems... I've done 1...Canreb 13:01, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

Well as Indy, Tiger & Ronin are all still in the region, do leave some things for us to discover, won't you? - Lt. Salak ^Talk 13:21, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

even with the little I have added to work with you could probally sim for the next 5 years... but NP... as soon as I finish doing the work on the FTU races I helped develop I will back off and move on to another project... Canreb 22:49, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

By all means add things, just be wary that certain details that have been simmed might contradict what you have on record, and that there are still ships in the region and thus they may return to these systems. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 03:58, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

That's the good news... I hope they do... then they can add more detail to the bare bones descriptions I have written up so far... all I have done is give a starting point... a simplist description of the FTU races and the systems they control... hopefully the players will by simming be able to expand and improve these entries... Canreb 04:14, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

OK... I finished the rewrites on the member races of the FTU and their homeworld systems... I hope it proves useful... Canreb 13:49, 17 June 2008 (EDT)

Talk page is raising questions over the name "Cait". I've removed all co-ord references from the index page due to lack of a z-axis, which makes them practically meaningless. Also, various sectors seem VERY densely packed. Especially given the intro states "1000 days to cross, or 2 years and a little over nine months, systems and local governments are far and few between." - Lt. Salak ^Talk 09:26, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Fixed the problem with Cait... it is the home system of the Caitian, a member race of the Federation... also sectors are 20 light years wide, tall and deep... their are no sectors above or below them... space is flat like a plate... see Star Trek Star Charts, The Complete Atlas of Star Trek thats why I used co-ordinates other wise how do you know where they are in relation to each other??? with out Co-ordinates one player might think The Dahri were on the border of the Tholian when they are actually closer to the Alpha Beta border and south of Cait Sector which is on the border with the Tholians... as for the number of systems within a sector... I already reduced it from the norm which acording to the book above is normally 32 to 40 systems per sector... Canreb 11:32, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Question... if we do not use co-ordinates how can you plot the time it takes to travel between locations when you have no idea where it is in relations to where you are??? Canreb 11:36, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Ignore the book. Space is THREE DIMENSIONS. Space is NOT flat as a plate. If it were, when you look up at the night sky, you'd see a ring of stars and otherwise a lot of black. I removed the Co-ords as there was no vertical axis. We do use co-ords, just the system you've been using has NO meaning when you're trying to place something in space. How best to explain it... take a map of the world. The whole planet is on one page, flat? But we know the world is round. The atlas has to account for it so has to stretch bits and flatten the planet to make it fit on a page. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 11:40, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

As for location of sectors, why not just describe it? It'd be a hell of a lot easier for people unfamiliar with that co-ord system. By the way, I just checked, a 20ly diameter sphere around Earth would contain just 7 star systems. In the sparce ithassa, we're probably looking at 2 or 3 systems in a sector in most cases I'd've thought. See wp:Image:Nearby Stars (14ly Radius).svg for a good image of how stars do not lie within a single plain, and thus how space is 3D. the line 0h-12h is the y axis, the line 6h - 18h is the x axis, a vertical line passing through Sol would be the z axis. All three are needed to specify the whereabouts of a star. You said yourself above, a sector is "20 light years wide, tall and deep", that's 3 dimensions. Your co-ord system gives us where it is in terms of the width and tallness, but there's no figure given in your co-ords saying how deep. A sector or a star could be at any point on that line, your co-ord system simply does not tell us. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 12:15, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Ok... I will describe locations... I need that becouse when I did the rewrite I figured out on a grid page where each sector would go... it affected how I wrote up each race in the FTU... also I understand about wanting the region to be sparse... but it would not suddenly go sparse... 2 years to cross is a one hell of a lot of sectors... deeper into the region the number of systems per sector will keep dropping but right here on the edge of Federation space they would be only slightly lower I was thinking... Canreb 21:55, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Sorry if I sounded really annoyed above, not the best of days. To quote myself however; "By the way, I just checked, a 20ly diameter sphere around Earth would contain just 7 star systems." When you're looking at the map, each grid square is not just one sector, but the sectors vertically above and below it as well. Thus due to the limitations of the paper being 2D, while you may seem to see 30-odd systems in a sector, you're actually seeing, perhaps 6 systems in each of 5 sectors, one on top of the other? - Lt. Salak ^Talk 22:28, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

If that is the case we need some way to tell the differance between those the 2 below and the 2 above... I would need to divide the 30 odd systems listed in Trinity between those 5 sectors... if you think of a way let me know and I will try and think of a system to do it as well... Canreb 06:27, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm not sure how would be the best way to do so. As it's all there already for Trinity, you could keep it as is I guess. The nearby nebula might explain why it's quite densely packed if a rationale is wanted? *shrug* However Ithassa is meant to be sparce, so I would be inclined to go for the far lower figure in our case. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 09:27, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

Sectors

if space is going to be treated as 5 sectors deep then how about useing the following as co-ordinates... A02-0005-1324... Quadrant, sector number from top to bottom, sector number from Alpha- Beta border... then distance from the galactic core... all in sectors... as for the Trinity Sector... how about if I divid it into 5 sectors named Trinity Sector 1, Trinity Sector 2, etc since all 3 powers would be present and meet in all 5 sector's... or we could call them Trinity Sector, Sector 118 and Serellan Sector for 3 of them... then for system location in a sector it's co-ordinates could be as follows 13-06-14, (left to right, top to bottom and then depth)... next their are 31 systems listed which could be divided as follows among the sectors starting from top to bottom... 1) has 4 star systems, 2) has 6 star systems 3) has 9 star systems 4) has 7 star systems and 5) has 5 star systems... Canreb 10:41, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

now taking that into account I could do the same with the FTU systems... Canreb 10:43, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

The powers may not necessarily be present in all the sectors. That's like saying, "oh, this bit of Europe is French, so all of Europe must thus be French". It's complicated. I want to go through the Ithassa stuff at some point anyway, so I might try to patch that stuff up. As for Trinity, it's Eagles region of space. As long as the CO is fine with it, shouldn't be a problem. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 10:48, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

In that case I will let you fix the Ithassa region stuff I did... and I will see about fixing the Trinity stuff... Canreb 17:30, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

Just read your rewrite for the Thassa Region main page... according to that you have space as only 30 Ly deep from top to bottom... each sector is 20 ly and you told me space was 5 sectors deep so shouldn't that read as 100 LY??? also I have been thinking... if we said space was 3 sectors deep (60 LY) instead of 5 sectors (100 LY) I could easily change over both the Trinity to that formate as well as the stuff I have done so far for the FTU... ie divideing the systems listed up between 3 instead on just the 1 sector... also that reduces the number of sector names I have to dream up... let me know what you think...Canreb 22:24, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

I went ahead and did the changes to reduce the number of systems per sector and to show that space is 3 sectors deep... in the Ithassa region with the FTU sectors I had created... let me know what you think...Canreb 22:48, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

I used 5 sectors as an example. The number is prob nigh infinite. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 00:16, 24 June 2008 (EDT)

I have finished the Jenatris Cloud Sector, now I will be making the same changes to Trinity and Serellan... I put in coordinates... 3 directions... first is depth... second is top of page to bottom... third is left to right... I think it looks a lot better now... Canreb 11:04, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

Just finished the Serellan Sector... had to go back and make sure I had changed all the templates and categories on both of them... only need to add a few details to the Mira homeworld and all of Serellan will be finished... Canreb 13:17, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

Eagle Crew Pages

Thanks for catching those pieces of information (crew master crew list and crew history). :) Teamwork's great! Alana 22:24, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

I try to keep up... this time I think I got lucky... but any help I can get keeping the pages up to date or to improve them is more than welcome... Canreb 22:33, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

Important Links

Try a colour wheel, like this one maybe?

Sector templates

Firstly; if you're placing the Jenatris Cloud, check it with Cmdr Varaan. It was part of the campaign region for his ship, he should get some say.

Secondly, Serellan Sector is set up as a redirect to Trinity Sector as it's another alternate name; old ship plaques (e.g. Ronin's, Phoenix-C's) place Starbase 118 in the Serellan Sector, you've placed it in the Trinity Sector, so they must be the same thing unless the starbase was moved somehow.

As for the template coding, I'm assuming you're meaning the "edit this nav" button at the bottom? Simple answer; you haven't changed that bit of coding to reflect the different template name. Remove:
|<center><sup>[[Template:Trinity|Edit this nav]]</sup></center>
...and replace it with...
|<center><sup>[[Template:Jenatris Cloud|Edit this nav]]</sup></center>
...that should make the link work. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 00:03, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

btw, been trying to work out... who are you? Who's your Primary Character? I can make a vague guess, but would be useful to know for sure. You haven't started your user page, so I can't look there to find out... - Lt. Salak ^Talk 00:25, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

I figured that Serellan was an alternate name... I have a solution to that which is that Starbase 118 is on the border between the Trinity and the Serellan sector... that would put it technically in both... now I just need to get rid of the redirect so I can start moveing some of the systems over... also I was ordered to put the Jenatris Cloud under the Trinity Sector a while ago... I just never did any thing about it till now... I figured if I'm going to redo it might as well redo it right... so how do I get rid of the redirect??? Canreb 00:30, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

I've just deleted it. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 00:33, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Sorry about that... I play Lt. Commander Tal Tel-ar, Chief of Security on the USS Eagle... and your right I guess I should have made a user page... just got buzy with all the other projects I been working on for the Wikki and just never got around to it... Canreb 00:32, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Ah, okay. I was thinking someone else, hehe. I knew you were on Eagle, but didn't know whom exactly. I could rule out Devar with certainty though :) - Lt. Salak ^Talk 00:33, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Question: If all the templates are identical, why have it 3 times? Why not use the same template for all cases? - Lt. Salak ^Talk 00:37, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

They will not be identical by the time I am done with them... right now I am picking which systems to move to which sector... then I will have to make the changes to the template to reflect those changes... Canreb 00:39, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Thats why for now I have the 3 sectors linked on the nav window... makes it easier to move items between them... then I will do the general rewrite to reflect the systems currently within that sector... Canreb 00:41, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Ah fine, makes sense :) - Lt. Salak ^Talk 01:03, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Question... when making the sector template what part of the code controls the color for the bar that runs accross the top of the screen below the sector name... ie Trinity is blue... Ithassa Region is red... Canreb 14:03, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

<div style="background: #003366; border: 10px solid #003366 where #003366 is the colour. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 14:17, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks... where do I look to find out what code is what color... Canreb 15:49, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Try a colour wheel, like this one maybe? :) - Lt. Salak ^Talk 16:12, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

It worked... now I just have to figure out co-ordinates for each star system in each sector as part of the location description... I have my 3 points of referance... Canreb 17:04, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Eagle Crew History

Where did you hear Yladro was transfering to Tiger? I've heard nothing so far this side, we have a First Officer, a helmsman... our main current gap is Security. *puzzled* - Lt. Salak ^Talk 14:20, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Look at the main Starbase 118 site... under ships crew for the Tiger it lists her as a member of the crew now... I double checked after I saw the article of the month here on the 118 Wikki main page... Canreb 15:48, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Already checked that, hence why I asked - Lt. Salak ^Talk 16:08, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

I just looked again... my mixup... will fix...Canreb 16:15, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

I served with Lily... use to talk to her frequently... not sure why I got her mixed up with my own first officer... was watching kids... but still should have cought that myself... Canreb 17:06, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Well, OOC Lily's writer is male but still... I'll tell my CO to ignore my queiry then. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 17:17, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Character Development

You're the higher ranking of the two of us, I should be asking you :P Perhaps other ship assignments that weren't simmed? - Lt. Salak ^Talk 20:01, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

Solved it thanks... Canreb 09:52, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

FTU

Any problem with me doing the rewrite for the FTU... now that I've filled in the information about the member races I think some history and membership privlages and responsabilites might give them more use and playability... Canreb 09:52, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

How much of it has been simmed? - Lt. Salak ^Talk 10:25, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

Not sure... I've been looking to see how much info I could find... not much other than what I know from my days with the USS Triumphant... a fellow crew member did the work on the asteroid base for them... over half the races were created by me during those days... and we all added a little info... one of the member races was added by a fellow crew member... and hints at the political system... background and motivations of the group were hinted at... but before we could do more our Captain retired and the Triumphant was decommisioned... Canreb 10:37, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

Wallace did a fair bit on them; the Tigers captain has a twin sister IC who used to be in the FTU. I think indy were even more involved with them than we were, they were the ones who simmed the Furies Furnace events. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 10:42, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

Also the fact that it's the closest alien organization to Federation space and Deep space 17... covers a fairly wide area of about 15 to 20 sectors... with only about 1/4 of the races in that area being members... they have 2 unnamed bigger powers on both sides of them... one reason they formed in the first place... I named them... but still have not done a lot of work on them... organized radically differently than the Federation... altho with many of the same motivations... Canreb 10:45, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

Well I'd suggest rewriting on a sub page, say User:Canreb/Free Trade Union then running it past the relevent Captains and/or crew before a move to make sure it doesn't contradict what's been simmed elsewhere since? Commanding officers in the Ithassa region include Hollis, Anassasi, Mar, Riley, Bejain, Kare'en... - Lt. Salak ^Talk 10:55, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

That sounds like a good idea... thanks... right now I will just try and add to my notes... maybe see just how much info I have to work with before I start... that will probally take me a little time... Canreb 11:02, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

Do you have contact info for the Commanding officers in the Ithassa region which includes Hollis, Anassasi, Mar, Riley, Bejain, Kare'en... I have done a search here at the wikki and can not find a user talk page for them... Canreb 23:43, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

I've got contact e-mail addresses for at least 4 of them, might have all of them. Won't post them here though. I'll e-mail. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 07:11, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

My e-mail is darylpeacock@hotmail.com... Canreb 07:35, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

I just sent using the "e-mail user" option on the menu left actually. Check your junk folder, it's known to end up in there sometimes. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 07:37, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

I double checked all my files on my e-mail... no sign of it... Canreb 16:42, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

Your junk filter prob deleted it then. I'll resend - Lt. Salak ^Talk 16:59, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

got it... thank you... Canreb 07:36, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Confederacy of Core Worlds

What's going on with this project??? Canreb 23:50, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

I got no response to the e-mail I sent requestion info on the FTU and the Confederacy... Based on the little I was able to find regarding the Confederacy I started work on it... could you take a look and let me know what you think of it so far... I've tried to bring all the different aspects of the region together... that and make sense out of the confusion I was able to find... which was not much... Canreb 11:08, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Canreb, please hold off on this for the moment, alright? DCody 00:15, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Trinity/ Serellan Sector

You've done some really excellent work on the pages for the Trinity Sector, Serellian Sector and Janaris Cloud Sector. These look really great and are very inspiring resources which I hope to use as the basis of sims and as a way of working more closely with the USS Eagle and others.

I'm just wondering where you got the inspiration from for all the info?

Also, I wondered if we might perhaps come up for a name for the Region of space that these three sectors make up? I was thinking the "Trinity-Serellan Region" -what do you think?

Trinity/ Serellan Sector

You've done some really excellent and solid work on the pages for the trinity sector, serellan sector and Jenatris Cloud Sector. All very inspiring stuff. Just wondered where the inspiration came from? Also, I was wondering if we might come up with a name of the region of space that these three sectors combine to make up? I think that would be quite useful. I was thinking maybe the "Trinity-Serellan Region"? What do you think? Let me know as I'd quite like to get my crew to start including some of this info in their sims.

"Fleet Captain Rocar Drawoh | Talk"

Collective Name

So what about a collective name for the three sectors? I think I'll run with "Trinity-Serellan Region" unless you have a better suggestion

"Fleet Captain Rocar Drawoh | Talk"

Co-ordination

Certainly will. I'll be in contact with Captain Taboo and Cmdr. Assanti about this to see how we can co-ordinate our work within the sector. I'll suggest we discuss this with you too once we know how we want to approach this ourselves. We'll certainly update anything we do as we go. Take for example the Valdis I page

"Fleet Captain Rocar Drawoh | Talk"

Bull's Run

How familiar are you with the details behind why this area was created? DCody 00:25, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Just with what is listed... and the brief description of where it is... while with the USS Triumphant I never had the chance to encounter it... just trying to make sense of the stellar cartography section... put the various entries in some kind of order so that they make sense... partly because the Ithassa Region is in both the Alpha and Beta Quadrants... before none of the listings gave you any idea if they were alpha or beta... how close to the Klingons or the Tholians... how far to the FTU or the Confederacy... where they are in relations to each other... I read every listing and then tried to figure out where based on the description it would be on a star chart... easiest method was with SECTORS... also when you consider that the Ithassa Region covers more than 900 Sectors based on the description... I knew I could not put all 900 on 1 page... so break down the total area into smaller sections as I was told to do with Trinity... Canreb 08:08, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Different things work for different areas. Just because it will work with Trinity Sector doesn't mean it will with the Ithassa Region. Ithassa is huge, a page on each sector could easily bury the important pages, making it harder to find information. I'm also taking this opportunity to point out the Klingons are at best a fringe power in Ithassa. The main powers are the Gorn and Tholians, with the Tzenkethi and FTU also present. Co-ords removed per dialogue with CO's. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 11:32, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

If you look I have the Klingons and the Tholians on the fringe... they with the Federation form the exterior border of the Ithassa Region... they are all technically on the outside of the Ithassa Region... I found 4 spots with mention of Klingon activity inside the Ithassa Region... 2 of which are the lost Klingon colony and the mention of a Klingon warship becomeing stranded temporarily in the Bull's Run area... I do not mention any other borders except that with the Gorn as they have not yet been explored... but since it looks like this project is unwanted... by all means delete it... I just found it all so confuseing... with no idea where inside the Ithassa Region any of the mentioned systems, planets or sectors were... I was only trying to organize it into some useful order that would clear up the confuseion... I made all pages UNDER CONSTRUCTION in case I did end up putting something in the wrong location... unless otherwise informed I will STOP AND DESIST work on the Ithassa Region completely... I was going to just finish moveing those systems mentioned into the larger areas I had created... then fill in the star and planet info for systems already listed... but I will leave them alone... Canreb 12:00, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Yes, but it's the Klingon Empire. That's not nearby. Ithassa Map shows where several of the places are relative to each other, and that map was originally created by Adm Hollis if I'm not mistaken. We go by that map rather than any other. You're more than welcome to contribute, by all means, but some of what you are adding conflicts with what is simmed, and what still is being simmed. Your enthusiasm is brilliant, but a greater familiarity would help; and the most familiar with the region are probably the CO's. For Trinity, I assume you're talking with Rocar, Taboo and prob Assanti, esp. given the messages above. I would heavily recommend discussing plans for the Ithassa wiki sections be run past at least Anassasi, Mar & Riley, if not Kare'en, Rhys and/or Hollis too. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 13:24, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Vonda & Subsequent Pages

Some of your work I saved in case you wanted to take it to your own region design. But any Ithassa related pages will either be reverted (or deleted), just to give you a head's up. Please do not take off with material developed by others (such as Ga'ter, Ramdii, etc). DCody 12:10, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Deleting Pages

No problem. We'll restore the Ga'ter for you. DCody 12:34, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Ga'ter sector is blank, Ga'ter restored. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 18:41, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Also the Prantis... both race and system are missing... only mentioned as insectoids... I named them and did the rest... Canreb 17:14, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Species restored. System coming. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 18:51, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Prantis system restored, as is the 3rd planet. System page has a summary, can look at the planet pages if so wished though. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 18:56, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

I had moved Ma'vil the system... then someone deleted it... can I have it back?? Canreb 18:10, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

The template at the top of Ma'vil I should show that most of it is retrievable without an admin needing to restore anything. If you need the system page, then fine, we can do that... - Lt. Salak ^Talk 18:44, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

I need the Rumaiy race returned... all my work and creation... thanks you... Canreb 18:22, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Rumaiy restored. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 18:41, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Devinon system is my creation... the name of the race is not... but the info on the race is... can I have the info... I will have to delete most of it... but may be able to salvage something... Canreb 18:24, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Still there, hasn't been deleted at all yet. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 18:46, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

I did the racial profile for both the Ramdii and the Oxian... plus both their systems... I will rename the races and the systems... can I have them back... I will also make those changes needed to seperate them from the FTU background I wrote... Canreb 18:27, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Oxian doesn't need restoring, it's still there. Ramdii should be too. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 18:41, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Don't forget to add colons if you're adding to the subject. ;) Your contributions toward the development of races/sectors and planets can/will be restored to you for the purpose of allowing you to rename/redesign the notes so you many create your own region/sectors/systems- as long as it does not borrow from Ithasa, per Anassasi's request. DCody 21:50, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

I thought Salak cleared up the Gat'er for you. As for Prantis material, can't say myself. Reviewing the material, Varaan would be the one to ask about Prantis. I have no reference material suggesting the origin of the creation. DCody 10:58, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

I removed the Ga'ter references on Parrins page, so unless I'm missed something, that should be fine for you to take. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 11:11, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

Renamed pages

I have renamed the Ramdii race and the Oxian race... you can now delete the pages for them... I have also done the pages for the Ramd system... they can be deleted... However Ramd III and Oxi I or RAMD and Oxi was missing... the wrong page was restored... it was my original article... I greatly expanded on it... this was the homeworld... I greatly expanded on it... also the city Brahma is still missing... can I have that data back... Canreb 09:54, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

Need the city page for Ya'Th'iss... also most of the info for the Prantis star system is still missing... I moved the 2 sections that had been replaced... still have to do the rest of the system... Canreb 12:57, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

There doesn't appear to have been an article titled "Brahma", I'll look see if there's anything of similar spelling. I've just restored Ya'Th'iss, sorry for the delay with that. Will restore Prantis shortly. Have just cleared out most of the Oxi system, but not sure if you've finished with Oxi Inner Asteroid Belt or Oxi (star)? - Lt. Salak ^Talk 16:12, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

New Bramha already restored, just restoring Bramha at the sec. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 16:15, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks... I have updated those pages... you can delete Oxi Inner Asteroid Belt and Oxi (star)... I have copied, moved and renamed them... Canreb 08:01, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Can you find the page Ma'vil III that has the planet data... ie in the version I make for all my planets... the one restored was what I started work the work with... same goes for Oxi I and for Ramd III... all are homeworlds with lots of added info over that of normal worlds... Canreb 08:10, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Previous Ma'vil III version is here. Previous versions should be in each page's history. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 08:31, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks... tried history and was able to recover both Ma'vil III and Ramd III... copied old document and renamed Ramd III... tried to do the same for Oxi... no luck... it was not under history... maybe it was under Oxi I... Canreb 08:59, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

That'd be cos I did a limited restoration at the time. Check your e-mail inbox, I've copied the text of the deleted version into an e-mail. - Lt. Salak ^Talk 12:26, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Thanks... moved and renamed the page plus making the needed changes... that helps a lot...Canreb 13:03, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Can you find the race page which was deleted for the Phaelasour... I know it needs a lot of changes but their is almost half of it that I can use with out any changes... Canreb 13:16, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Should now be in your e-mail inbox - Lt. Salak ^Talk 15:03, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Updated Race info

Have moved this to be a subpage of your user space; User:Canreb/Updated Race info. Do realise there are Andorian characters in the fleet, and that there are already entries for the Andorians and Aenar in the ILI. - Lt. Cmdr. Salak ^Talk 10:04, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Yes I realize that... I am just trying to put all the info I have writen down in notes into one concise understandable article... I think I must have scanned every single site, page and entry in regards to Andorians on the web... even went out and bought a few books... talk about a lot of conflicting data... If the finished produce is not wanted or of any use I still plan to print it out and use it for myself... It should make it easier for me to play an Andorian myself... Canreb 10:56, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Just lost over an hour of work... ouch... Canreb 10:58, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

Course. Andorians are a bit... ambiguous yeah, there's a lot of contradictions even within canon I think. Apologies if the lost work was my fault. - Lt. Cmdr. Salak ^Talk 11:41, 4 September 2008 (EDT)